Anna Montana
May 28, 2008
Matt Singer at Left in the West has promoted a commenter named “Anna” to full front page posting privileges. That’s not the sort of thing I much care about, as I regard blogs as a tempest-in-teapot kind of media. I doubt most Montana voters know of the existence of the blogosphere. Like op-eds, blogs are interesting, but don’t determine the outcome of elections. It’s still a door-knocker’s world.
“Anna” is a Clintonite, and a brash and petulant one at that. She’s resentful of Obama and his supporters, has a thin skin and lacks substance. She’s not done much to earn a place at the head of the class. In a microcosmic sense, as in one grain of sand compared to a beach, it’s not unlike the New York Times putting William Kristol on its op-ed pages. It doesn’t add much light, but stirs heat and fire, and is good for readership. I suspect Anna’s feminist tendencies confer an automatic faux-credibility on her. She gets to walk right on by the depth and reason booths at the blog carnival.
But I write this mostly because my old pal Bob fairly well leveled Anna. (Read the entire thread here.) She was showing her lack of depth in not being able to relate to the angst of those who were upset over Hillary’s Bobby Kennedy analogy. Bob told his story:
I was in Viet-Nam when JFK was assassinated. It occurred shortly after the coup against the Ngo Dinh Diem regime and their assassinations. I was sitting in the mess hall across from a draftee from Texas, who proclaimed how “proud” he was that JFK was killed in Texas!Following the assassination of JFK, the assassination of Martin Luther King occurred, followed shortly thereafter by the assassination of Bobby Kennedy. I was living in Santa Monica at the time and was in the living room of my apartment watching live coverage of RFK’s campaign visit to Century City. That live coverage included his assassination. I went nuts! I screamed: “No, no, no, no…!” over and over again. My girlfriend was asleep in the bedroom and came running in to see what was wrong. I was still screaming. It was simply too much. Viet-Nam, Diem, JFK, MLK, RFK! I just couldn’t take any more.
When Hillary Clinton made her repulsive remark citing RFK’s assassination as an example of why she wouldn’t quit her primary campaign before June, I came uncorked again. I guess you might call it a PTSD relapse or flashback or something. I agree, JC, that Anna is empty of all reality concerning what any assassination, let alone multiple assassinations (and attempted assassinations) have done to this country and its psyche. I don’t know what Matt Singer means when he refers to Anna’s posts as “magical.” For me, she comes across as entirely callow and sophomoric, if not in fact adolescent.
I get the feeling that as a self-described “feminist” Anna believes that she is carrying a heavy load for women, including Hillary Clinton. I don’t buy it. Anna is no Simone de Beauvoir, Betty Friedan, Germaine Greer, Gloria Steinem, among others who did the heavy lifting to give Anna the opportunity to play pretend heroine in a tremendously successful “women’s liberation” movement. It’s too much to ask someone to grow up before their time, but at least, Anna, you could get over your sense of self-importance and take a break from your pretenses of all-knowing punditry. Limit yourself to your own experience, which obviously is not very much.
To which Anna replied:
This kind of thing is the reason why new people don’t post comments here.
‘Nuff said.
May 28, 2008 at 9:52 am
I’m disappointed that you would exert the time and energy to demean somebody. Seems…small. And definitely beneath your usual posts.
May 28, 2008 at 11:23 am
She has real and persistent liabilities that are fodder for just criticism. I don’t see why she should be exempted. Who was it said that if you can’t take a beating, don’t put on a uniform?
May 28, 2008 at 1:00 pm
I wish Anna would post (or at least comment) on other Montana blogs. I’d like to have discussion–no, not a fight, in case you’re reading this, Anna–with her. It’s too bad she doesn’t leave LitW. I’d make the first move, but I don’t like the format at Left in the West, so I rarely visit and never comment there. Maybe she feels the same about the rest of us.
May 28, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Jay, what’s to defend with Anna? Are you chumming for readership at Left in the West? Anna’s your chum, then, I guess (pun intended).
Anna’s response to my comment at LiTW (posted above by Mark): “This kind of thing is the reason why new people don’t post comments here.” Seriously?
I think LiTW is “demeaned” and made “small” by Anna’s “magical” shtick: “Make it up as you go; don’t worry about facts or substance; whine a lot; promote self-pity in the name of faux feminism.”
Mark, it was Bill Clinton who said: “This is a contact sport, if you don’t wanna play, keep your uniform off.”
May 28, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Bob, her response to you was out of line. I can surmise that she was reacting to the general derogatory tone to her view, but that would be assumption (based on some facts as she actually went after me for defending her.)
*But* it’s difficult to judge a website by it’s commenters, regardless of whether they have front-page privilege or not. I don’t think Anna ‘demeans’ LitW in any way. She adds some excitement and entertainment. If you don’t like being disagreed with, then maybe those things aren’t for you. Other than that, keep in mind that it’s a blog, a blog you’re holding to an unrealistic personal standard. If any want to dust up with Anna, I’ll get in the fray at the time and place, and generally I’ll be agreeing with you. If you wanna go after Jay and Matt for making a choice to give her a voice, then you’ve called the sides; and you’re in the wrong, and I ain’t on yours.
Rebecca, I agree with you. But I do find it interesting that the only person I’ve seen calling her out for camping at LiTW is … well … me. She has commented (once that I know of) at my website. Perhaps this is a good sign.
Mark, please, I am asking with all respect. Anna got what she deserved in the thread in question. If you want to do the smackdown, save it for the righties. I got your back. But please don’t assume that she’s getting anything special. Her credibility is gonna be based on what she writes, and that based on what she desires.
Not any more than you do, my friend. You are a front-pager at *2* significant Montana weblogs. So why fuss over it?
And lastly, Bill Clinton is full of shit. The point of succeeding at a contact sport is playing through the pain and the tired. I know that and I’ve done that. Anna seems to know that. That’s what proves you wanna’ play. Bill is just spouting horsecrap he doesn’t get to get back into the White House on his wife’s ability. So why quote him?
May 28, 2008 at 4:51 pm
I realize after I posted above that my claim to not spend any time at LitW was negated by the fact I know about Anna. I guess I know enough to agree with you, Wulfgar. She’s feisty. She’s smart. She adds a lot of excitement to the site. It gets boring when everyone on the playground agrees with each other and plays nice.
May 28, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Mark, I agree with your option to say what you want about her. it is hypocritical for people to say she has a ‘right’ to have a voice, but then come down on you for using your voice to criticize someone else. I don’t know that I completely agree (I haven’t seen enough of her stuff to say), but I am bit surprised to see her front-paging it, given how reluctant LiTW has seemed to be about handing that privilege in the past.
Wulfgar, this isn’t a binary system; it is not always ‘us’ and ‘them’. It Mark wants to go after someone he may agree with more than not, who are you to criticize him for it?
May 28, 2008 at 9:15 pm
I put this up because of the power of Bob’s words and her weeny response. She was totally out of her depth. If it was just a matter of going after her for her general behavior, I would not have bothered. I haven’t used this place to go after Checker or Swede or any of my tormentors, as they score their points and do quite well, and going after them after they get their licks in seems like a cheap shot. And I would have left Anna alone if she had at all risen to the occasion with Bob.
May 28, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Hey, thanks, Trotsky. Really, though, you won’t know what torment is all about until you meet Checker 8 next week.
I’ll go girl-to-girl with Anna Montana any day, but not on Bagel Boy’s Blog.
May 29, 2008 at 6:39 am
Prove me right, why dontcha. Say something intelligent.
May 29, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Uhhhm, I’m a guy who agrees with Mark more than not making a request? Did you think that response through, Colby?
And could somebody tell me who in hell “Bagel Boy” is?
May 29, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Perhaps Anna’s pithy responses are usu. aimed against folks calling her a “faux feminist” and the like. There’s a delicious irony y’all are missing that a few middle-age white guys are the self-appointed arbiters of feminist authenticity in these parts.
As for Mark’s “right” to criticize? I don’t recall anyone ever questioning anyone’s right to stoop to incivility and character assassination. I just think it’s a bit petty and a colossal waste of energy.
Anna represents a lot of folks who don’t post or comment because of the incivility leveled against women and Clinton on the blogs. Sorry she ruffles yer feathers. I guess now you know how it feels.
But yeah, that wasn’t a very good post.
May 29, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Man this is annoying. Anna’s posts and responses have been more juvenile than pithy, certainly not magical. And no one was uncivil to her – she has been criticized, and justly so, and you and her start talking feminist manifesto when it happens. You’re giving her a free pass. My point exactly.
Some time, Jay, you’ve got to take off the blinders and judge her on her merits. There’s no magic there. Bob said it best above in my post that you say wasn’t very good. I suggest you apologize to Bob for that, since the majority of the words were his, and they were damned fine words, and Anna blew it in response. Totally blew it.
I don’t like having to walk on egg shells when I get around feminists. And you are as touchy as they are Jay.
Civility and character assassination? That’s just nuts, if I may be uncivil. It’s bullshit.
May 30, 2008 at 7:48 am
Bob’s RFK thoughts were, indeed, fine.
It’s the last paragraph that’s ill-considered and which likely spurred Anna’s response. Generally speaking my rule on people’s self-identification is to let them identify themselves anyway they want. I suspect Anna is a better authority on feminism than Bob. Certainly she has more experience as a woman than Bob.
As for the quality of Anna’s posts, I don’t see them as differing much from a lot of anti-Clinton screeds I read. A lot of what is written falls back on false memes and language of the 1990s conservative attack machine that relies on strongly entrenched and rigid views of women in our culture.
So, yeah, I get pissed off at some stuff Anna posts. Especially the rhetoric that MI and FL should be seated to “count all the votes,” or the constant harping on white, blue collar voters as the reason why Clinton’s more electable. (Which I think is a subtle form of racism.)
But then those arguments have spurred some good posts, IMHO. And a lot of my friends and family (my mom, eg) feel the same way she does. So…IMHO, it’s best to act civil, parry the arguments (which should be easy if you think they’re so ill considered and superficial), and respect her idividuality and right to define herself the way she wants.
I don’t have a problem that you dislike her. Personally I find her 1000 times more civil and considered than, say, Dave Budge, who you’ve lauded time and time again. But I think it’s a little petty to stoop to dedicating a post to slamming her personally.
May 30, 2008 at 8:03 am
The last paragraph of my post was deliberate – a little humor if I may.
I quote from Bob:
I have a problem with any group that uses a perceived victim status to make claims to achievement when there is no achievement to back it up. There are plenty of accomplished women out there, and it is very difficult for them in a man’s world. I’ve no problem with that, and if they want to complain, I’m all ears. But I object to those women who wear the victim’s yoke and presume to know that they are part of an oppressed minority when they haven’t accomplished anything of note. So hail to the fighters, but boo to the Anna’s who are so inured to victim status that they forgot that they actually have to put up the goods to be seriously considered in this world. Enough of pretenders.
Say what you want about Budge – I too object to his arrogance and immaturity, but he’s the real deal. Anna is not, and I perceived that she was getting preferential treatment based on a bloated notion of persecution. I have a blog, so I used it, and will continue to do so. Anyone who puts up ought to step up.
May 30, 2008 at 9:48 am
Jay, I agree that Anna has more experience than me as a woman. As a “feminist,” however, there is much room for doubt. It is not only women who have been categorized as “feminists” in this world.
I have a long history of being a friend and “champion” of women as human beings equal to men in any way they choose to define themselves, challenge themselves, or be challenged by others. Most of my closest friends and companions throughout my life of 68 years so far have been individualist, strong women with minds and bodies of their own that they have always exercised as they see fit.
Anna is not criticized because she is a woman or a “feminist” (faux or otherwise), as far as I am concerned. She is challenged and criticized because she communicates above her station, as far as her claims to experience, knowledge of history, politics, and rhetoric are concerned. At least that’s my observation.
As Mark has pointed out, Anna’s self-assumed role as “victim” is offensive and annoying. She has yet to demonstrate any depth of understanding about what she writes and criticizes others for writing. As a man, I don’t consider myself to be “one of the girls,” nor do I want to be, or strive to be. Anna is simply not ready for prime time, in my opinion (not necessarily, in this case, so humble).
May 30, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Actually, Bob, she quite clearly has been. Perhaps you missed Larry’s misogynistic BS (and some of Mark’s), but many of us didn’t. In truth, she was put on the defensive pretty much right from the get-go. But if you want to match “feminist” cred with her, please feel free. It’s good entertainment.
Now this is the part that just kinda tweaks my chain. “Her station”? I would sincerely like you to explain to me, Bob, when America became a caste society. You may be older, and you may be more experienced, but that sure as the hell doesn’t make you ‘better’. If it did, we’d all be voting McCain.
Yup, Anna can get on people’s nerves. No doubts, no lie. That tends to bring out the ugliest in people (a skill I strive for and am very adept at.) The only real questions left have little to do with Anna. If she’s wrong she’s wrong. No opinion about her will change that. No, the questions all have to do with who you are, who we are. She brings out the ugly and of that there is no doubt. So I’m askin’, as someone who doesn’t have a real well defined limit, how far are you willing to go? What do you really believe that makes Anna so offensive?
May 30, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Thanks for making my point, Wulfy – if you criticize, no matter how warranted, if it happens to be a feminist, you are automatically labeled a misogynist.
Nice to have that protective shield. That way they don’t have to put up results, unlike the rest of us.
May 30, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Mark, sometimes you are absolutely correct. Other times, you ain’t. It’s you who have pre-assumed the outcome, not the “feminists” (SCARE QUOTES!!!!). That tends to make me think that you are the one in the wrong here.
In Anna’s case you may be right. But I sure as hell didn’t make your point for you. And I did notice that you avoid dealing with my actual point, which was that Bob’s advanced years do not give him privilege (or, what was your term? A “protective shield”?) simply on his say so. There are no ’stations’ we must submit to in America. We should have no sacred cows. If you fault Anna for supporting such a sacred cow, no problem. Originally, that’s what you did. But invoking the Straw (Wo)Man of ‘feminism’ is supporting your own sacred cow. I’ve no more patience for that then I frequently do for Anna.
May 30, 2008 at 3:17 pm
I dealt with that part of your thread that affected me. The rest was addressed to Bob. I’m MYOB.
May 30, 2008 at 4:33 pm
“…above her station.” A poor choice of words, indeed. As soon as I hit “Submit Comment” and read what I had written, I cringed. I had in mind something more like “beyond her experience” or “out of her depths.” As JC has pointed out on numerous occasions at Left in the West, when Anna is challenged on substantive matters she cuts and runs, leaving some snide remark behind in her wake. Her credibility suffers because of that.
I did notice Larry’s commentary about “feminazi” and “nutcrackers” and I don’t buy into any of that. As far as “feminist cred,” my life has offered me more opportunities than “good entertainment” in engaging in what is now called “feminism.” The women I mentioned (Simone de Beauvoir, Betty Friedan, Germaine Greer, etc.) were pioneers in the “women’s liberation” movement. I cut my eye teeth, you might say, on Simone de Beauvoir’s “Second Sex” when I read it in my teens. It helped to form me intellectually on the subject, because it matched my own feelings and experiences with regard to women while growing up.
Betty Friedan and Germaine Greer, along with Gloria Steinem and her co-founding of Ms. magazine further fueled my ability to express my own feelings and experiences on related subjects. Germaine Greer debated Norman Mailer and others on numerous occasions, in print and in person. Those were incredible dialogues. It was a seed bed of revolutionary discourse on subjects dear to my heart.
As for my age, I don’t propose that as an identity card of any kind that announces me as “superior” in any way. Life is much more nuanced, however, at 68 than it was when I was 28. My inherently independent nature and anti-establishment bent at 28 took on different forms than that same nature and propensity do now. I don’t mock the young. Most of my best friends are much younger than me, and most of them are women. Through them I am able to experience a future that I can enjoy in the present as they make their way on their own. That is why Barack Obama is the man for the times, in my opinion.
When Anna compares Hillary Clinton’s candidacy with RFK’s I don’t know what she can possibly be thinking. When challenged with facts, once again she exits stage left with trailing words…”and how does that change what I wrote?” That’s pathetic.
I don’t strive to “bring out the ugliest in people.” I don’t want to use my remaining time in this life doing anything like that, but I have always been actively engaged in life and have always taken life seriously. Unfortunately, I have found no opportunity to take Anna seriously at all at this point. I hope I’ve explained a little bit about why that is, Wulfgar. Thanks for offering me the opportunity to clarify my earlier comment. I hope my words here help in that regard.
May 30, 2008 at 5:11 pm
They do. And please do not mistake my harsh nature for disrespect. None is meant.
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