I ran across an interesting discussion at Michael Krahn’s blog on the God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins. (Krahn did a ping on my piece of religion below.) The God Delusion has created quite a stir, and Dawkins comes under legitimate fire for minimizing the complexity of the religious experience and failing to give proper creds to smart people who are also religious. But he makes one salient point that I pressed Krahn on – he’s dealt with it somewhat, but not thoroughly. It has to do with indoctrination of youth.

That’s where I become a passenger on Dawkins’ train. When I was a kid my head was filled with stories of demons and angels. I thought I was being followed around by an angel, and was asked to give him a name. (Norman, OK?) My every thought was monitored, every activity recorded for later review. This became especially troublesome as I entered my teen years. My normal drives were considered sinful, and I spent a number of years guilt-ridden and estranged from “Holy Mother Church” for perfectly normal behavior.

It’s a question of power. I was a kid with a blank slate. They had the obligation to nurture me, to feed my brain, and instead they chose to use that power to control my thoughts, to make me one of them. I was never given a choice on the matter of religious faith. Dawkins considers this a form a child abuse. I mildly agree, as my case was not the norm, and most kids were not treated in such an extreme manner. Just the Catholics and the fundamentalists.

Here’s Krahn on the subject:

The reasoning on the part of many parents goes something like: “I’m not going to bias my kids with my beliefs. I’m going to let them figure that out for themselves.” To me this is a gross mismanagement of parenting responsibility. They will be influenced one way or another and all one is conveying with this “non-influence” stand is that all the searching in life has not led them to anything they want to pass on.

I do agree that children raised under a certain belief system having all other systems withheld will be ill prepared to face the world. My children will be exposed to many viewpoints but I will certainly be passing on to them what I’ve learned along the way. As a responsible parent can I really abandon them in their intellectually formative years to make an unaided decision?

That idea of an unaided decision is a fallacy anyway because children don’t make many unaided decisions – you will either primarily aid them or they will be aided by someone who is not you, and at that point what was the point of your parenting, or your lifetime of learning for that matter?

Touchy area, I confess. I spent my kids’ early years exposing them to the Catholic faith, as I was programmed to do. But when the bolt of lightening knocked me off my horse, when I stopped attending Church, my kids followed. Theirs was an ideal situation – they were free to choose. They had seen both, and chose the non-religious path.

But influence them I did. I could not help it. I was their Dad, they looked to me for guidance. When they saw it was OK to doubt, their own doubt shone forth.

What would have happened had I continued to insist that they follow the Catholic faith? I don’t know. I suppose they would be conflicted. I hope they would be thoughtful.

What’s the ideal here? Krahn pretty much admits he’s going to teach his kids Christianity as a default belief system. He’s afraid that if he is not their primary influence, them someone else will be. That’s the Catch 22 – kids are susceptible to manipulation. If a parent simply steps back, God only knows who will step in. One of my daughters flirted, along with some of her friends, with an influential pastor of an evangelical church. I was worried – faith was one thing, fundamentalism another. I regard it as a form of mental illness. I contacted the pastor, we discussed his behavior, my daughter was aware of my contact, he backed off, my daughter escaped.

That’s how I remember it. She might tell me different.

Here’s a proposal I regard as reasonable: Step back. Teach comparative belief systems, which would include agnosticism and atheism alongside the major faiths. People regard atheists as morally deficient – we’ve had many holding public office, perhaps even the one holding the highest office right now. But they cannot be so publicly. An atheist cannot be elected to high office. If we get ‘em when they are young, help them understand that non-belief and doubt are honest and honorable life paths, perhaps religion will lose some of its swagger.

As it is now, religion is confounded with good. Christopher Hitchens made the statement, which I cannot cite, that he had little respect for people who proudly called themselves sheep. Religion is not a good commodity by definition. Much of what it does for the human condition is positive. I know people whose lives have been turned around by a religious experience. Where before they were lacking direction and self destructive, religion put them on a different path, made them annoying, but better overall. Religion is not without merit.

But children should know all of it, the good and the bad together. If Dawkins is right, we are genetically bred to obey higher authorities – it’s how we survived. He’s preaching against himself. Kids are going to follow something. Regarding religion, it is better to give them the high view, to let them see all of it, and to expose them to those of us who believe in being good for its own sake, and not for some eternal reward.

And introduce them to the power of doubt. It’s been a major force in human advancement.

13 Responses to “Doubt is a Higher Calling”

  1. mtpolitics Says:

    If a parent simply steps back, God only knows who will step in.

    Was that on purpose, Mark?

  2. mtpolitics Says:

    Goes without saying.


  3. With me, nothing ever goes without saying.


  4. Hey Mark,

    I’m glad we’re having this conversation… and this is good – you’re getting me started on my post about indoctrination. You don’t mind if I steal my own comments off your blog right? ;-)

    The reason I have “dealt with this somewhat, but not thoroughly” is that my kids (all girls) are 4, 3, and 1 and when it comes to parenting I try to live by the rule that I don’t comment – not with apparent authority anyway – on things I have not yet experienced.

    So, with my oldest being only 4 she is starting to ask questions, starting to pick up things here and there that she hears about “God”. This is where you and I differ – you have older children and you’ve already been through this. So I do appreciate your insights, and for that matter the honesty of your post.

    I am in the process of determining proper responses to my daughters. Am I going to bombard them with theology that she has no hope of understanding? No, of course not. Am I going to answer their childlike questions in equally childlike terms that they can understand? Yes I am.

    Where I have determined that I have found Truth I will tell my children. Where I have doubts I won’t pretend to be certain. That’s the way I work.

    As for your childhood experience… yes, things tend to be overspiritualized in many ways. It’s an error I try to avoid. You have that in common with another one of my commenters who I went out for a Guinness (still don’t like it BTW – I try to like it every 2 years or so). His point was much like yours: things were so overspiritualized for him in a negative way that he couldn’t be in a dark room alone without being afraid.

    Now this is all very unfortunate when it is the result of religious fearmongering. Do I believe demons and angels exist? Well, as a Christian, of course I do. But the manner of their influence is considerably more subtle, as a rule, than what is portrayed in a Frank Peretti book or for that matter a Stephen King book/movie.

    The extremity of your treatment is common to some Cathoilc communities; I am far more familiar with extreme fundamentalism though, which is very common here in Southwestern Ontario (Canada). You have these groups nailed and I agree with you that they are involved in malicious indoctrination. I know many such people personally and they don’t even consider me a Christian. Seriously… especially if they read this and find out I had a beer.

    If you don’t mind me asking, what was the “bolt of lighting that knocked you off your horse”? I’m assuming this is not the same flash of light that knocked St. Paul off of his.

    You’re right on this too: children should know all of it, the good and the bad together. And here’s another point we won’t agree on but from personally experience, many of the friends I grew up in church with ditched their Christianity when the other half of the truth was known. My belief is that they, along with a couple of generations in North America would still be Christians today if they had known all of it and been able to work out their faith with the knowledge of both sides.

    I’ll make an assumption here so correct me if I’m wrong, but would your thinking be that given all the evidence anyone who honestly wrestled with it would choose Atheism?

    You have my vote on doubt. I even wrote a song about it called Broken Hearted. http://www.michaelkrahn.com/music/MP3/Broken%20Hearted.mp3

    The song is about the benefits and challenges of embracing doubt.

    (if you liked that song, there are more at http://www.michaelkrahn.com .)

    Cheers Mark, here’s to many more of these conversations.


  5. “Where I have determined that I have found Truth I will tell my children.”

    That is what I was complaining about, at its bare essence. Found truth? I’ve been searching my whole life and it all boils down to this: The world is far more complex that our limited minds can comprehend. It is better to embrace what we do not know than to dream up childish answers. I live for mystery, I thrive on it. It’s fascinating to look at this world and the cosmos and have not a clue why it all is what it is. That’s my spirituality, if you must call it that. I love not knowing.

    You make of my experience thusly: Oh, well you had a bad religious experience, but if you had a good one, you’d be a Christian. Oh no, I do beg to differ – I know of the goodness of religion. People need certainty and simplicity in their lives, and the real world provides neither. Religion gives them false answers, and we are to be satisfied with that. Some of us aren’t – I’d be very disappointed in myself had I become a religious person – I find it unsatisfying, even a little creepy. I want nothing but life with its joys and pain and no sugar coating. There’s enough joy to sustain.

    Children should look at all of the religions and judge when they come of age. DO I think they woudl choose to be agnostic or atheist? Many more than now do, for sure. Religious leaders must know that you’ve got to get them when they are young or you will not have them at all.

    But many more will choose to be religious. Maybe we could do some compromising – I’m tired of Jesus and the Apostles and especially that awful Yahweh of the Old Testament. How about some new mythology?

    Oh – and about getting knocked off a horse – never happened. I was just alluding to Paul’s episode. It was much more laid back with me. I heard a comedian one time talk about having lived Iowa for 22 years. He said “It never occurred to me that I was free to go.” That’s all that happened – I realized one day that I was free to walk away.


  6. [...] 5th, 2007 by Michael Krahn Over at the blog Piece of Mind, in a post called Doubt is a Higher Calling, Mark Tokarski has challenged me to define my thinking about childhood indoctrination a little more [...]

  7. Jim Says:

    Hello Mark
    I few of your ideas on raising children have holes in them. I am a person who teaches the Bible to kids but who does not indoctrinate. When I teach, I explain why this is and why that is. The goal is that the children have an accurate understanding of the Bible. I try address every commonly known challenge to the Bible and what the response is. If the Bible is taught meticulously and each major point is explained then the child will have the information they need to make an educated decision as to the road they chose when they come of age.

    As to other religions I teach my daughter the basics of each major religion, focusing on their strengths and especially their unreconciled contradictions so she understands why I believe that they are false.

    You said, “It’s fascinating to look at this world and the cosmos and have not a clue why it all is what it is.”

    Are you saying here that you are clueless? Is that what you wanted for your children? “Why” is a very important question. We should never look at it as trivial.

    I hope your children are doing well. Regards.


  8. I’m hardly clueless – that’s quite a reach – I merely admit that the cosmos is grand beyond my capability to understand. To pretend to know that which cannot be known is folly. Can you not handle not knowing? Must you settle for flimsy mythology?

    All religions, being huyman inventions, have contradictions. What bristles is your idea that one does not. The Bible, ancient literature, some very good, full of tall tales and assemble assembled by fallible people, is hardly the be-all-end-all. It’s just a book.

  9. Jim Says:

    Hi Mark
    ** Can you not handle not knowing?**

    I am absolutely certain that God is behind what we see.

    **All religions, being huyman inventions, have contradictions**

    How can you be certain that all religions are human inventions?

    You bypassed my primary point that a Christian father can teach his children a thorough understanding of the Bible, including the pros and cons and the what fors. I also teach my daughter about Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam, and where they are contradictory. She already has a good background in comparative religions -she’s 11. Question, again, is there anything wrong with this approach? All kids will decide separately from their parents whether to accept Christ or Mohammed or whatever. It’s called coming of age.

    More questions: Where did your kids learn comparative religion? From you or at a public or private school? Furthermore, what kept them from becoming Pop Culture idiots?

    You think I embrace “flimsy mythology” and I believe you are clueless and proud of it. Surely, there must be some common ground.:-) Happy Father’s Day.


  10. My children learned of comparative religion in a manner not different from yours, in application if not specifically – they went to Catholic schools. The Catholics ladled out the comparisons, of course leaving it to the kids to decide, just as you do.

    Have you taught them the contradictions of Christianity? How a kind and loving Jesus will ride in on a white horse and smite them if they don’t believe? Of the horrors of the rapture?

    I’m no Einstein, but I do side with him that the universe is a beautiful and mysterious place. I’m not so foolish as to think I understand its workings, or that primitive pre-science humans had a clue.


  11. [...] at the blog Piece of Mind, in a post called Doubt is a Higher Calling, Mark Tokarski has challenged me to define my thinking about childhood indoctrination a little more [...]

  12. Melanie Stephan Says:

    Hi Mark, Mike and Jim Hi, You should read Richards lastest book titled, “I am so much smarter than God”. At the very beginning of the book he states God never finished High School and that he holds a number of BS degrees from various Universities. In the next chapter he then explains in scientific terms everything in the Universe and how it works. He then continues to name each and every species and how they are a benefit to the ecosystem. In Chapter 3 there are pictures of Richard in the Lab actually creating new life. Turning the page I see a picture of Dawkins and Darwin receiving an award for their work in science. Funny how the name Dawkins and Darwin are almost the same. Then in the last chapter, he goes on to say “See even I can create life, it’s not that hard”.
    All I have to say is: Richard do you really expect us to believe that you can create life out of nothing? Don’t you think that people are going to say your nuts? If your going to state that your a scientist I’d think you should have some proof to back up your statements?


Leave a Reply