After 18 Years, Conrad Burns STILL Doesn’t Understand the Tax System
December 9, 2006
Bear with me here – it would help we who pay taxes to understand the tax system a little better – at least to understand it better than Senator Conrad Burns. After eighteen years in office, he still doesn’t see how it works.
If you want to know how working people pay the freight while the rich get a free ride, read on.
From the Billings Gazette, December 1, 2006, Burns Vows to Stay Active in State Affairs:
Burns told farmers he believes taxes on the wealthy are too high.
“Everyone says you have to tax the rich and give to the poor. If you’re into wealth redistribution, that’s fine,” Burns said. “How much class warfare do you need?”
Burns, long funded by big-money donors has, after eighteen years, adopted their world view. Though not wealthy himself, he sees the world through the eyes of the wealthy. He doesn’t see that working people pay more tax, at every level, than wealthy people. He doesn’t understand the tax system.
Here’s an example – I won’t belabor the fine points – this is bare-bones. Just understand the bottom line:
A single self-employed guy, Joseph P. Schmeau, makes oh, let’s say $65,000. His tax would be (2005 rates) $19,663. That’s 30% of his income.
Let’s change the example – let’s say Joe Schmeau is a child of wealth, that his grandmother left him stocks, and he lives off income from stocks. Say that he makes the same $65,000 that way. His tax would be $5,773, or about 9% of his income.
That’s all you need to know – Joe Schmeau, working stiff, pays almost three and one-half times as much tax as Joe Schmeau, child of wealth.
And Burns can’t see it. He thinks we’re being unfair to children of wealth. He can’t see it because he was captured by wealth and learned to see the world through the eyes of wealth.
There’s more – there are tax breaks available to the wealthy the rest of us know nothing about. There’s a movement out there on the right wing to eliminate the Estate (they call it the “Death”) Tax. That’s the tax rich people pay on their assets when they die.
Here’s another example, once again bare-bones, to illustrate the point:
Joe Schmeau was the child of Cinderella Schmeau. Cindy was smart and lucky, and bought IMB stock when it was cheap. When she died it was worth a million dollars, and she left it all to Joe. Because it was only a million dollars, her estate would pay no tax under the current limits. Joe would inherit the stock tax free.
Joe hangs onto it. IMB stock increases in value over the years, and when Joe dies, it is worth $10 million. That would have generated an Estate Tax in 2006, but because Conrad Burns thought the “Death” tax was so grossly unfair, he voted to eliminate it. So when Joe died, no tax was paid on the value of the stock – $10 million. That’s how Conrad wanted it.
Cinerella Schmeau never paid a dime in tax on the increase in value of the IMB stock, and neither did Joe. Together, they accumulated $10 million in wealth without ever paying one penny of tax.
Were that wealth to be accumulated by means of labor instead of investment, it would have been taxed at every turn at the highest possible rates. Half of it would be gone. But Conrad Burns thinks that the current tax structure is unfair to wealthy people.
That’s Conrad Burns’ world. He sees the Estate Tax as unfair, and is painfully unaware of the current rates of taxation on the income of working people.
But that’s what happens when you see the world through the eyes of wealth. And that’s what happens to people when they’ve been in office too long – they see the world through the eyes of their benefactors. For so long as rich people pay for campaigns, they will own our politicians, just as they owned Conrad Burns.
December 11, 2006 at 8:25 pm
The death tax is near and dear to my heart so I’d like to dispel the fact that the Schmeaus never paid taxes. First of all Cindy was indeed smart and every month see paid into her IBM fund with after taxed monies. When Joe inherited her fund tax free and later died his kids paid no tax because of the changed law. But this is where we part ways, IBM invested this money in a new division and products. Because of this working capital they where able to hire 20 new employees. Employees, who of course pay taxes, buy cars(licenses), buy goods (sales taxes), and own homes (property taxes). IBM themselves pays property taxes on their new widget wing. These new taxes would surpass any one time penalty in the long run.
December 11, 2006 at 8:36 pm
Ya see, your under the assumption that the rich don’t pay their fair share of taxes. What do you think is fair? The top 50% pay 96.54% of all income tax, which means the bottom 50% pay 3.46% of all income taxes. I wonder which half costs the government vs. which half pays more of the other taxes and fees mentioned above.
December 11, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Mark, thanks for the lesson. I like it.
You should give Big Swede lesson on logic though.
Because of this working capital they where able to hire 20 new employees. Employees, who of course pay taxes, buy cars(licenses), buy goods (sales taxes), and own homes (property taxes).
Again, you are taking the burden off the rich person who did nothing but have moey to invest and putting it squarely on the shoulders of the workers.
December 12, 2006 at 9:47 am
Swede: I’ll take your points in reverse order.
The rich do not pay 96.54% of all taxes – that is another of those misleading and self-serving statistics that Bush drummed up to support his tax cuts. Most Americans pay more payroll tax than regular income tax, but the 96.54% figure only measures the income tax and ignores the payroll tax entirely. Look closely at what Schmeau the worker paid ($19,663) and what Schmeau the child of wealth paid ($5,773), and you will see the impact of the payroll tax, which your self-serving and false statistic ignores. You are citing bad numbers – numbers meant only to mislead you.
Your first argument is just a restatement of the trickle down theory – that wealth is created at the top and is shared with those down below. Carry this theory to its logical conclusion, and we should exempt all wealth from taxation, period, and have only workers pay tax. This is, in fact, where Bush wants to take us.
I take a different view – wealth is created by labor, and works its way up the food chain, where it is captured and protected. One of the ways of protecting wealth is to exempt it from taxation. I simply say that all forms of income should be taxed at the same rate, that if any special protections are to be given, it should be to wealth in its infancy stages, where it is being created by workers. In my view, the Earned Income Credit contributes far more to our wealth creation engine than special protections given dividends and capital gains, which occur after-the-fact.
Because wealthy people have so much influence over our lawmakers, we have a system where the wealth capture and accumulation goes on largely without tax. It leads to massive disparities in wealth – very rich, very poor, few in between. The estate tax levies a tax, often a first-time tax, on wealth and moderates this natural tendency to extremes. The wealthiest societies on earth are those where wealth is more evenly distributed – the poorest have extremes.
Anyway, as Al Franken reminds us, the ESTATE tax affects our most important and productive citizens – the children of wealthy people. (In case you miss it, that is extreme sarcasm.)
December 12, 2006 at 11:42 am
We can go back and forth on income vs payroll, both two things remain constant. Number #1 avoiding estate taxes legally is a multibillion industry in itself. I call the estate tax the “stupid tax” meaning ya screwed up and didn’t pay an estate lawyer or hire a bevy of accountants to avoid it. As long as we have wealthy politicians making rules (research wealth of Dems vs Reps) they’ll always be ways around them. Number #2 You’ll never separate wealth from smart people. If the estate tax goes to total confiscation people will start hoarding diamonds and gold, history proves that.
December 12, 2006 at 11:55 am
I’d like to be around to see if Franken’s kids pay any estate taxes, then again his money could be tied up in Air America stock.
December 12, 2006 at 1:17 pm
You’re right about not separating money from smart people – that is the way of the world. And smart people need to have incentives – I’m not at all against wealth accumulation for the achievers among us, but within limits, and not at the expense of working people. Right now, working people are taxed heavily, wealth owners lightly. Working people need an oppotunity to hoard some wealth too, but the deck is stacked against them.
Without things like the estate tax, we naturally gravitate into extremes of wealth and poverty. Some people think this is good, as it is natural, but the wealthiest societies have adopted systems of graduated taxation and estate taxation to level the playing field. The poorest societies exhibit the extremes of wealth and poverty.
If smart people are always going to avoid the estate tax, why do they want to repeal it? In fact, it raises billions every year.
I went “forth” on income vs payroll tax, but you never went “back”.
December 12, 2006 at 2:45 pm
Maybe the reason I’m not backing is that I have a vested interest? I think if you were to study all the different countries and their wealth distribution you’d find the ones with no freedoms and oppressive regimes will have the greatest amount of poor and separation of the classes. Could have their been a “Famous Amos” in the Belgium Congo-I doubt it. I also think that your impression of wealth means selfishness. My wealthy parents(worked hard, saved lots) gives 25% of their yearly income to the church and missions.
So I’ll compromise, If you accluminate lots of wealth in your lifetime and didn’t give some away to charities or church you deserve to have the govt. take half!
December 12, 2006 at 2:57 pm
And finally, what makes you think the act of taking away the majority of a families’ accumulated wealth will somehow benefit “the workers”. That’s been tried-it didn’t work!
December 12, 2006 at 3:00 pm
“I think if you were to study all the different countries and their wealth distribution you’d find the ones with no freedoms and oppressive regimes will have the greatest amount of poor and separation of the classes.”
I think you don’t know this. Countries of Latin America are by and large free and open, and suffer from great wealth disparity. Cuba and North Korea are closed societies, but pride themselves on income equality.
I did not once mention the word selfishness – I’m talking about social policy – it’s a given that people want to hoard all they can and will – it just is that way and there is no point in assigning negative value to it. Social policy attempts to achieve greater good by means of tax policy.
I don’t see how your parents factor into this. I don’t get how you, on one hand, decry the Estate Tax, and on the other, say that people “deserve” to be stripped of 50% of their wealth.
You’re kind of a moving target. I’m saying that people who work for wages or who are self-employed are being stripped of half their earnings, while people who live by benefit of inhertinace are not. Stay on message.
December 12, 2006 at 3:24 pm
I know you don’t want to go in this direction but the majority of black working families receive only a small portion of their social security benefits. Because the Black male has such a shorter lifespan than his white counterpart he seldom receives anything close to what he contributed. My solution for working families to accumulate wealth and pass it down is let them invest in the private sector for greater returns like the rich!
December 12, 2006 at 4:23 pm
I can’t quote facts about countries wealth distribution other than this, when my best friend’s son was in Saddam’s Mansions they were surrounded by slums, hence my impression of third word countries. I can’t speak for Latin Am. but I know lots of people risk their lives swimming from Cuba to Florida for search of a better life for their families.
My comment about my parents is about being socially responsible with wealth. The wealthy give more charitably than many people know. If those good deeds were exposed maybe we wouldn’t be in this discussion. People who have the ability should be generous.
As far as the payroll disparity I think your assuming that by maintaining the estate tax or even increasing it will bring these two rates (30%and9%) together. I got news for you, there not going to.
I know in your example Cindy got lucky and invested in IBM-well, people win the lottery too. In all examples of large estates the founder usually worked extremely hard and saved and in a few cases got lucky. Should the lucky ones forfeit said fortune?
Hope that was more on point-enjoyed the discussion.
December 12, 2006 at 4:36 pm
There are disparities in the tax system – the wealthy are allowed to accumulate assets free of tax. One way we tax them is through the Estate Tax – it’s often a FIRST TIME tax on wealth accumulation. It’s a fair tax.
People who work for wages have, BY DEFINITION, already been taxed – not once, but twice – income, and payroll tax. They will have already given up half their income to taxes while wealthy people have often not paid a penney. This is the central point of the post.
People who live on investment income pay only the income tax, and at a reduced rate. Hence, 30% versus 9%. That ought to be fixed, but wealthy people contribute to the politicians who write the tax laws, hence the politicians sympathize with the problems of wealth – hence, Conrad Burns sees the wealthy as overtaxed, and isn’t even aware of taxes on labor. He’s completely bought.
Labor is taxed at a mcuh higher rate than investment income. The two ought to be fixed.
Wealth and charity – I don’t know the figures. Neither do you, I’m sure. Your parents are besides the point. If you are saying that we should not tax people in hopes they give their money away, I think that is foolish.
People leave Cuba becuase they want a better life. We could help them right now, with immediate inmpact, by lifting the illegal embargo.
This is a hard discussion – you don’t stay on message. I hope I’ve addressed everything you brought up.
December 12, 2006 at 4:39 pm
I missed your post above the one I answered. You bring up a real problem with Social Security and black people. I’m sure there’s a way to alleeviate this problem, but I doubt that eliminating the Social Security system is it.
Find me one product on the open market that provides a joint life annuity of at least 1/3 of your working income, survivor benefits for minor children, and disability income – find me a product on the open market that does that for what Social Security charges, and I’ll buy you a beer. Such a product does not exist. I’ll put up a Social Security thread if you want – I’ll be glad to duke it out on that one.
December 12, 2006 at 8:47 pm
I think Big Swede figures that as long as he keeps talking, he’s putting up an argument. He’s a moving target, to be sure, but he never addresses what you’ve actually said in a given comment. Quite the strategy.
April 30, 2007 at 12:12 pm
[...] class breadwinners actually shoulder as big or larger tax burden than their financial betters. Plus, the costs that are growing the fastest – health care and [...]